Sexism in Games – A Mea Culpa by Trixie360/Christa Charter

[PeeKnuckle]

I'm glad she wrote this. I'd encourage you all to read it and possibly discuss it back here when you're done.

 

I'm applying the three strikes [X] rule for this thread. If you have a problem with this thread, or a comment, give the thread a strike [X]. If it reaches three strikes, it'll be deleted. However, we're adults, and I think we should be able to discuss this without getting personal, upset or derogatory.

 

http://trixie360.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/sexism-in-games-a-mea-culpa/

 

[Dateranoth]

That was a good article, and I'm glad she wrote it. Her case is probably the large majority. Just let it slide and laugh it off.

 

I can't say I've ever worked anywhere that it's been an issue. I mean sure, guys hit on girls, jokes are made between friendly coworkers, etc, but nothing that would be on par with what she was writing.  Then again, I've never worked very long at any place that required sucking ass to advance.  I think the power and advancement of career is at the root of it. The gaming industry and many like it require an ample amount of kissing ass to keep moving up the ladder.  This often translates to putting up with shit you wouldn't anywhere else.  Women have the hard role because that shit will often involve people who feel they have enough power and control to get away with vulgar actions.

 

I don't really know what's to be done for it. You either take the bullshit or you don't. 

[MrsBadExample]

This makes me sad. I worked for a tech company where it was pretty much all dudes. It was just myself, and one other girl in our office. (we had two other females in the entire company) During one of the company happy hours, which usually happened every Friday, one of the execs (he was shitfaced) grabbed her breast. She got pissed off and pulled back, and instead of him apologizing, he laughed at her and said something along the lines of "it's not like I'm going to bang you" (I'm hardcore paraphrasing, it's been a while). Apparently a few guys saw this and helped her out of the office.

Nothing happened. HR knew about it, but she was another female. We, as women in this industry, had no power in that company. Who would believe us? What would it accomplish? She would have just lost her job, and it's a recession. Instead she just continued like nothing happened and seethed about it internally, and he claimed he blacked out later that night and of course never knew what happened the entire night.

 

I was incensed about the entire thing, but she asked me not to pursue it. What can you do in a situation like that? I loved a lot of those guys in that office, they were like adorable little brothers to me, but the amount of disgusting sexist comments that flopped out of their mouths was appalling. Two days on the job, and one of them is messaging me about sex toys being delivered and my preferences. When I asked about it to my female coworker, she said "Oh, that's just [x], he's harmless."

 

It's a shitty, shitty attitude, but we let it happen, and we let people get away with it. And because we do so, it continues, and it gets worse. 

 

 

edit: And I will say, every time I've tried to make a change in an environment where I've found it hostile to women, I've been fired - so I've stopped trying. And I don't mean stupid jokes or anything, I'm talking BLATANT HOSTILITY.

[PeeKnuckle]

Thanks for talking about it, MrsBE. I know it's not an easy thing to do, especially in an open forum like this.

[MrsBadExample]

Pfft, it's plenty easy. I could rattle off millions of times I've dealt with sexual harassment, jokes, comments, etc. It happens all the time. And if you want to continue being considered a "team player" you just roll with it. It makes you very bitter when you read these sorts of articles, and even more bitter when you hear morons say "oh but sexism isn't THAT bad"

 

Yeah, it is. It happens from retail jobs to the gaming industry. But the more of a "boys club" the job position is, the worse it gets. I've become extremely desensitized to it, from being subjected to it for years, plus just being part of the gaming community. I've joined ventrilo discussions before where guildmates were - at that very moment - discussing the size of my breasts because I had posted in our guild's photo thread. Instead of telling them to fuck off and die, I just laughed about it and awkwardly changed the subject. Why? Because the last girl who got upset at them being sexist dickheads was branded as a bitch and kicked out of the guild eventually.

 

(I did get some balls after a while and quit the guild, and wouldn't put up with that now, really)

 

It's just very, very stupid. Women put up with it a lot. It blows.

 

 

superedit: Throwing this out there - this doesn't mean walk on eggshells around me. There is a huge difference between professional behaviour, and shooting the shit with friends. It's when disrespect becomes part of the conversation is when it's a problem - and a lot of people don't understand that difference. PK has apologized a few times for how you guys talk in mumble, and I think it's hilarious. I'm used to it, but in a good way. My conversations aren't very different. You guys talking about dicks: very funny / my boss talking about dicks: not funny at all please get away from me I DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU.

[PeeKnuckle]

Last weekend, I got drunk while one of our streamers was casting. I was in Mumble with him, and the channel was able to hear me. One regular came in (I'll not use her name), and I kept going on and on about how beautiful she is. It was rude of me to put her on the spot like that and I'm sure it embarrassed her. I've since apologized to her, and she said it was all right, etc. It wasn't, though. Even if my words that night weren't graphic or sexual, I still put a lot of unwanted attention her way.

 

It's not just that, either. I am a part of Gamercide and should have conducted myself better. I'm still very ashamed of the way I acted. She doesn't want me to beat myself up about it, but I can't help it. I started to look back at my actions while I was drunk, and I did it a lot. I always explained it away as, "I'm not being rude. Just complimenting a beautiful woman". It hit me, though, while reading comments like yours, and Trixie's. Sure they smiled or laughed, but it wasn't over what I perceived as a compliment. It was to hurry up and get past that embarrassing moment, or the unwanted attention.

[Kevnvek]

You were on a bit of a tangent that night (as you and people in general are wont to do when intoxicated), but I didn't see you doing anything wrong.  There's a huge difference between calling a woman beautiful or pretty as a compliment, and making crude remarks about her.

 

There are a lot of good points made in the article and discussion here though.  Sexism is just wrong, and society needs to get the fuck over themselves and accept that we're all human beings here.  Gay, female, of a different race, it makes no difference, we shouldn't segregate.  It's appalling that sexism is still a major thing, when we look back and see how bad times were for African Americans only a few decades ago.

[MrsBadExample]

There's a huge difference between calling a woman beautiful or pretty as a compliment, and making crude remarks about her.

But this is where you're wrong (not to make you feel bad PK!). Unwanted remarks are unwanted remarks, regardless of the content of the message. 

 

A drunk guy in a bar calling me beautiful over and over will make me 200x more uncomfortable than some jackass just calling me a bitch or commenting on my looks somehow. The reason is because when you have someone directing a compliment at you, you feel awful telling them to shut up - they're complimenting you! I can punch the other guy, but punching the drunk guy who doesn't get the whole 'personal space' bit makes me look horrid.

 

I've had people pop into my channel before, and compliment me randomly. One guy told me I had beautiful eyes, and I was all beamy all day about it. It was very nice! Another time I had a guy come in and wouldn't STFU about how gorgeous I was, and kept asking about me being single (no, no, no, no). Finally I told him to fuck off, and the channel basically recoiled and said that was totally uncalled for, even though I kept trying to get him to leave me alone.

 

But the difference is, PK is awesomesauce for realizing what he did made her uncomfortable. A lot of people don't. So thumbs up.

[Kevnvek]

I suppose the difference between your examples is the persistence and perhaps the ulterior motive.  There's nothing wrong with acknowledging a female as attractive if you're not crude or presumptuous about it.  But yeah, being overbearing about it, I can see being a problem, especially when it can embarrass the other person.

[Morrslieb]

Ung, I typed up this gigantic paragraph to respond to this thread with and then just deleted it because I can sum it up in a few short words.
Sexism, racism, bigotry, all of it. It's all sickening to me. I loathe people. I hate how we function in groups. I hate how we function on our own. I hate our species. It is sick and depraved.

 

 

Ninja edit.
I'm truly sorry for the behavior of people. MrsB, I am sorry. I don't know those men but they are clearly terrible people and I am sorry you had to put up with it. I am sorry.

[green grenades]

"bitches be cray cray" -GG

[MrsBadExample]

Ninja edit.

I'm truly sorry for the behavior of people. MrsB, I am sorry. I don't know those men but they are clearly terrible people and I am sorry you had to put up with it. I am sorry.

S'all good This is why I've never understood people who utilize a large paintbrush to dictate who people are. You miss out on some extremely amazing people if you do. All you guys are extremely jawesome, and I've been super happy to be a part of this group. If I had been "pfft the guy girl / guy ratio is shit MOVE ON" then I would have missed out on some great stuff.

 

So don't be sorry, you're not one of them, and their behaviour doesn't pertain to you! Continue being awesomesauce.

[Morrslieb]

I have gotten into many fist fights over the course of my life. Most of them were defending people, protecting the downtrodden. I am Deathspank.

(Seriously though, a lot of fights.)

[Avahra]

I'll have to mull over this for a minute before I respond.

[MWB]

I fucking hate that bitch

[PeeKnuckle]

You can hate her in private, but why put that here on the forums?

[MrsBadExample]

Conversation contribution: +100 points

[irish66]

I wasnt gona chime in but what the hell. Yes guys can be pigs....but women can be just as bad. Mostly its just less reported. I've watched a few friends lose jobs due to women screaming false reports and i myself have. The thing is and i wont speak for all guys as the world i live in has been called the rube world....if a woman says "and im just using this" hey al nice ass....im just gona reply yeah ive been workin out or if i say "again just using" het joyce nice ass....im gona get back...your never gona touch it fat ass. I have seen pics of myself hydrating a tree from a fellow female fireman...caption thought you woulda had to stand closer. Just saying its a two way road.

[PeeKnuckle]

Definitely, and I don't think anyone was saying it was completely one sided. One road is just much, much more traveled than the other.

[irish66]

But then you need to look at how and heres strike 1....how some women dress at work. And some will dress in as little as they can showin off what god gave em and let 1 guy bitch, ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE...!!!!... Yove just bus chucked there right to dress as they want in the workplace and your a pig

[PeeKnuckle]

I'm going to use two comments from the link in the original post. They convey their point well.

 

There’s nothing wrong with being sexy. There is something wrong with how beautiful people are treated. And there is something very wrong with how certain people pursue their “romantic” interests.

 

AKA they dressed sexy so now I can act like a pig.

 

I think it is ridiculous to imply that because a girl dresses sexy or walks sexy or poses sexy (because it makes her feel good and the attention is fun) gives men a right to make inappropriate comments. I once had a tongue ring because it made me happy. I liked it and did it solely for my benefit. But I removed it when I got tired of the many comments I would get from men (at work, non-videogaming company) implying (or directly saying) I got it because I wanted to suck their cock. I don’t give a fuck if they think those thoughts in their head or mention it to their buddies in a male bonding moment but it needs to be kept out of any workplace or work event.

 

My thoughts on this -- If your female co-worker  is attractive to you, you're going to like her if she's wearing a tube top to work, or if she's dressed up like a librarian. I think the big difference is, many men can't control themselves. We think that bit of flesh showing gives us carte blanche to act and say what should be kept in our heads. Too often we don't take enough personal responsibility and easily cast it off onto someone else. She showed cleavage and that makes me uncomfortable at work. Isn't that an admission right there, that you can't control where your own eyes go? It's only a distraction if you allow it to be one. There are obvious places where one (male and female) shouldn't dress as they wish at the workplace, but that ultimately comes down to policy and dress codes.

 

We as a nation did this to ourselves. We censor the body when it's not needed. If you open a magazine or even the newspaper in the UK, you'll find breasts in their full glory. Go to a beach there, and there's plenty of topless sunbathers. I have no scientific studies to back me here, but I think that has a lot to do with it. We typically want what we cannot have. That's why we're so excited over a nipple slip or erect nipples. It's the forbidden area! Never mind that many of us grew up attached to a breast most of their waking moments as a baby. Breasts have a function. They're a biological tool. We sexualized them. We covered them up and made them taboo.

 

tl;dr - learn self control

[MrsBadExample]

The US is definitely more uptight about nudity. EU is more "HEY GUYS, FREE BOOBS!" than anything else. But the US has some sort of almost oppressive feel to sexuality, while they bombard you with it at the same time - telling you NO NO NO THIS IS BAD but isn't it SEXY?

 

I'll never state that some women don't abuse the shit out of the fact that they're in fact, women. People do. As I've said, people can just be assholes. People make up false sexual harassment claims, rape claims, domestic abuse claims.. it's disgusting. And it makes me upset, because I feel like every woman who does that sets us back every single time SO much, it's ridiculous. 

 

But PK, you hit the nail on the head, thank you. Just because I decide that I want to show some cleavage that day, doesn't mean that you can treat me like a piece of meat, or some sort of sex puppet. No, I personally won't get furious if I see eyes flicking down (it happens, I guess it's the point, but I just like the top, it's purdy) but you aren't free to ogle my wares. My workplace doesn't allow me to dress like I'm going to the club, so I'm not going to dress as such, so I never see what the problem is.

 

I wanna know where all these scantily dressed coworkers are.

[irish66]

Mrs B feel free to come to my job. The girl in the office wears basicly a thong and two wash cloths....but no guy will go near that office anymore. Two have been lost so far. My last job as a auto mechanic we had a female service writer who somehow could not button the the top 5. We called her T-Rex arms. She would lean over the car or rub on ya but you didnt dare look. But let me crawl my Husky ass out from under a car bend over an some ass cleavage come out....im fillin out aps the next day. And PK my eyes can stay home brother...lol. my wifes got more than enough to keep me happy

[PeeKnuckle]

I wasn't telling you to learn self control. "tl;dr" is short for "Too Long; Didn't Read". When someone writes out a long post, they know not everyone is going to read it. So, they put that down as a short synopsis of what they meant.

 

In short, it was to all men who can't control themselves.

[CHINESE BABOON]

I think the blame goes all around. What classifies as "sexy" nowadays would be considered slutty and vile by my grandparents generation. I feel like the best way to analyze some situations regarding gender is switching the roles. What if a man walked into work with shorts that were only 6-10 inches long, were skin tight and showed the bulge in his pants and wore a deep v-neck shirt that showed way too much chest hair?